"2018 童蒙先習 09 - 13"의 두 판 사이의 차이
Julian Butterfield (토론 | 기여) (→Passage 11 : (Julian Butterfield)) |
Jelenagledic (토론 | 기여) (→Passage 11 : Jelena Gledić) |
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| (사용자 7명의 중간 판 18개는 보이지 않습니다) | |||
| 30번째 줄: | 30번째 줄: | ||
=='''Translation'''== | =='''Translation'''== | ||
| − | ==='''Passage 9 : | + | ==='''Passage 9 : Petra Sváková'''=== |
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| + | 苟或君而不能盡君道하며 臣而不能修臣職이면 不可與共治天下國家也니라 雖然이나 吾君不能을 謂之賊이니 | ||
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| + | Indeed perhaps being a ruler but not be able to exhaust the way of the ruler, being a subject but not be able to carry out the responsibility of the subject [then it is] not possible '''to join together in ruling the family, the state, and all under the Heaven'''. Nevertheless, saying [that] my ruler is not able [to do this] is called treacherous. | ||
*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
| + | + For "天下國家" part I found a reference to Mencius (孟子曰：「人有恆言，皆曰『天下國家』。) in which this part is translated as "The kingdom, the State, the family.". Would this translation be also possible for this text?<br /> | ||
| + | - Yes, thus " join together in ruling the family, the state, and all under the Heaven." The reference we mentioned in class was the ''Great Learning'' 大學 for its line "修身齊家治國平天下". | ||
| + | ==='''Passage 10 : Petra Sváková'''=== | ||
| + | ---- | ||
| + | 昔者에 商紂暴虐이어늘 比干이 諫而死하니 忠臣之節이 於斯盡矣로다 孔子曰 臣事君以忠이라하시니라 | ||
| − | ==='''Passage | + | In the past, in the state of Shang<sup>1</sup>, [there was] king Zhou<sup>2</sup> [who was] fierce and cruel. Bi Gan remonstrated against [his doings] and died. The moral integrity of the loyal subject reached to this [point]. Confucius said: "The subject [must] serve the ruler with loyalty." |
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| + | <sup>1</sup> Shang state (dynasty): 1600 BC - 1046 BC | ||
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| + | <sup>2</sup> King Zhou, also known as Di Xin (1105 BC - 1046 BC), according to Sima Qian was a very capable and quick-witted king in the early years of his reign but in his late years, he preferred drinking and women over morals and ruling the state. | ||
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| + | *Discussion Questions: | ||
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| + | ==='''Passage 11 : Jelena Gledić'''=== | ||
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| + | Husband and wife – the joining of two family names, the beginning of life and people, the source of all happiness. The matchmaker discusses the marriage, welcoming gifts are exchanged, and this [all] emphasizes their mutual difference. That is why when taking a wife, one does not marry one of the same family name. In the home, the inner and the outer [realm] are distinguished. The man resides in the outer and does not discuss the inner, and the woman resides in the inner and does not discuss the outer. | ||
*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
| + | + Regarding 福, we discussed in class how to translate it and I thought about its relation with 喜 - when you decide on the translation for one, I think you should have one for the other as well because they are related; so, I decided on happiness for 福 (as its content is the more open-ended and subjective), and joy for 喜 (as in joyous occasion, because it is often used at weddings); this is just a suggestion and I still think fortune could also work.<br /> | ||
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| + | + Regarding 行媒, in class I think we looked at 行 as a verb, but I found that the two characters together mean matchmaker (媒人, as in 禮記．曲禮上：「男女非有行媒，不相知名。」文選．沈約．奏彈王源：「以彼行媒，同之抱布。」). To me it also makes more sense like this, so I hope that is correct.<br /> | ||
| + | (YO) Yes, I think both are fine. The reason I took 行 as a verb was the point that a family employ (or work 行) a matchmaker so that he/she mediate the discussion of marriage, but I think "matchmaker discusses the marriage" does describe it, too. | ||
| + | + I am not very happy with my solution for 納幣親迎者, so I will gladly take suggestions :)<br /> | ||
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| + | + [http://archive.aks.ac.kr/imageViewer/ImageViewer.aspx?datauci=G002+AKS+KSM-XF.1695.0000-20101008.B070a_A01_00308_XXX&refuci=G002+AKS+KSM-XF.1695.0000-20101008.B070a_A01_00308_XXX&fname=G002+AKS+KSM-XF.1695.0000-20101008.B070a_A01_00308_XXX-IMG.001.jpg&closed=true 納幣文] | ||
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| + | (Kyrie) In class we discussed that 納幣 refers to the bride greeting her parents-in-law and offering wedding presents, which I see reflected in the translation. We also said that 親迎 refers to the groom bringing the bride from her house to his house, which I do not see reflected in the translation. Perhaps e could try something like "the ceremonies of gift giving and retrieving the bride are those which emphasize their mutual difference" ?<br /> | ||
| + | (YO) We could make it more specific—the ceremony of bride's offering gifts to her in-laws and groom's travel to welcome the bride in, something like that? 親迎 is one of the six ceremonies of wedding where the groom goes to the bride's house to meet/welcome her to the ceremony.<br /> | ||
| + | (JG) Thank you! Great solutions. | ||
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| + | ==='''Passage 12 : Bryan '''=== | ||
| + | ---- | ||
| + | 12. 苟能莊以涖之하여 以體乾健之道하고 柔以正之하여 以承坤順之義면 則家道正矣어니와 反是而夫不能專制하여 御之不以其道하고 | ||
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| + | If a husband is strong to face it and penetrat the way of the Heaven’s solidity , if his wife rectifies it with softness and succeeds the righteousness of the Earth’s obedience, then the way of household is correct. Contrary to this, if a husband cannot individually control his wife or handle her with the Way, | ||
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*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
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| − | ==='''Passage | + | ==='''Passage 13 : Bryan'''=== |
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| + | 婦乘其夫하여 事之不以其義하여 昧三從之道하고 有七去之惡이면 則家道索(삭)矣리라. | ||
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| + | The control of the wife cannot be make without the way; if she does not serve her husband with the righteousness, and if the wife ignores the three subordinations of a woman<ref>三從之道 : 삼종지도 / the three subordinations of a woman were to obey: her father as a daughter (Chinese: 未嫁从父; pinyin: Wèijià cóngfù) / her husband as a wife (Chinese: 既嫁从夫; pinyin: Jìjià cóngfū) / her sons in widowhood (Chinese: 夫死从子; pinyin: Fūsǐ cóngzǐ). It first appeared in the Book of Etiquette and Ceremonial 儀禮 and in the Rites of Zhou 周禮.</ref> and has the seven sinful causes of divorce<ref>七去之惡 : 칠거지악 / 시부모에게 순종하지 않음(不順父母) / 아들이 없음(無子) / | ||
| + | 음탕함(不貞) / 질투함(嫉妬) / 나쁜 병이 있음(惡疾) / 말이 많음(口說) / 도둑질을 함(竊盜). It first appeared in the Annalects 論語. </ref>, then the way of household will be chaotic. | ||
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*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
2018년 7월 16일 (월) 21:55 기준 최신판
목차
Original Script
9. 苟或君而不能盡君道하며 臣而不能修臣職이면 不可與共治天下國家也니라 雖然이나 吾君不能을 謂之賊이니
- - 만약 혹시라도 임금이면서 임금의 도리를 다하지 못하며 신하이면서 신하의 도리를 다하지 못하면 함께 천하 국가를 다스릴 수 없다. 비록 그렇지만 우리 임금은 훌륭한 정치를 베풀 수 없다고 말하는 이를 임금을 해치는 자라고 하니
10. 昔者에 商紂暴虐이어늘 比干이 諫而死하니 忠臣之節이 於斯盡矣로다 孔子曰 臣事君以忠이라하시니라
- - 옛적에 商나라 임금 紂가 포학한 짓을 하자 比干이 간하다가 목숨을 잃었으니 충신의 절개가 여기서 극진했다. 공자께서는 신하는 임금을 忠으로 섬겨야 한다고 하셨다.
::夫婦有別::
11. 夫婦는 二姓之合이라 生民之始며 萬福之原이니 行媒議婚하며 納幣親迎者는 厚其別也라 是故로 娶妻하되 不娶同姓하며 爲宮室하되 辨內外하여 男子는 居外而不言內하고 婦人은 居內而不言外하나니
- - 남편과 아내는 두 성이 합한 관계이다. 백성들이 태어난 시초이며 모든 복의 근원이니 중매를 시행하여 혼인을 의논하며 폐백을 들이고 친히 맞이하는 것은 그 區別을 두터이하기 위한 것이다. 그러므로 아내를 맞아 들이되 같은 姓은 취하지 않으며, 집을 짓되 안과 밖을 구별하여 남자는 밖에 거처하여 안의 일에 대해 말하지 않고, 부인은 안에 거처하여 밖의 일에 대해서는 말하지 않는다.
12. 苟能莊以涖之하여 以體乾健之道하고 柔以正之하여 以承坤順之義면 則家道正矣어니와 反是而夫不能專制하여 御之不以其道하고
13. 婦乘其夫하여 事之不以其義하여 昧三從之道하고 有七去之惡이면 則家道索(삭)矣리라
- - 만일 <남편이> 씩씩함으로써 대하여 하늘의 굳건한 도리를 體行하고 <아내는> 부드러움으로써 바로잡아 땅이 하늘에 순종하는 도리를 받든다면 집안의 도리가 바로 서게 될 것이다. 만약 이와 반대로 남편이 아내를 마음대로 제어하지 못하여 올바른 도리로 다스리지 못하고, 아내가 남편의 약점을 틈 타 올바른 도리로 섬기지 않아서 三從의 도리를 알지 못하고 七去에 해당하는 악행이 있으면 집안의 법도가 무너질 것이다.
Translation
Passage 9 : Petra Sváková
苟或君而不能盡君道하며 臣而不能修臣職이면 不可與共治天下國家也니라 雖然이나 吾君不能을 謂之賊이니
Indeed perhaps being a ruler but not be able to exhaust the way of the ruler, being a subject but not be able to carry out the responsibility of the subject [then it is] not possible to join together in ruling the family, the state, and all under the Heaven. Nevertheless, saying [that] my ruler is not able [to do this] is called treacherous.
- Discussion Questions:
+ For "天下國家" part I found a reference to Mencius (孟子曰：「人有恆言，皆曰『天下國家』。) in which this part is translated as "The kingdom, the State, the family.". Would this translation be also possible for this text?
- Yes, thus " join together in ruling the family, the state, and all under the Heaven." The reference we mentioned in class was the Great Learning 大學 for its line "修身齊家治國平天下".
Passage 10 : Petra Sváková
昔者에 商紂暴虐이어늘 比干이 諫而死하니 忠臣之節이 於斯盡矣로다 孔子曰 臣事君以忠이라하시니라
In the past, in the state of Shang1, [there was] king Zhou2 [who was] fierce and cruel. Bi Gan remonstrated against [his doings] and died. The moral integrity of the loyal subject reached to this [point]. Confucius said: "The subject [must] serve the ruler with loyalty."
1 Shang state (dynasty): 1600 BC - 1046 BC
2 King Zhou, also known as Di Xin (1105 BC - 1046 BC), according to Sima Qian was a very capable and quick-witted king in the early years of his reign but in his late years, he preferred drinking and women over morals and ruling the state.
- Discussion Questions:
Passage 11 : Jelena Gledić
Husband and wife – the joining of two family names, the beginning of life and people, the source of all happiness. The matchmaker discusses the marriage, welcoming gifts are exchanged, and this [all] emphasizes their mutual difference. That is why when taking a wife, one does not marry one of the same family name. In the home, the inner and the outer [realm] are distinguished. The man resides in the outer and does not discuss the inner, and the woman resides in the inner and does not discuss the outer.
- Discussion Questions:
+ Regarding 福, we discussed in class how to translate it and I thought about its relation with 喜 - when you decide on the translation for one, I think you should have one for the other as well because they are related; so, I decided on happiness for 福 (as its content is the more open-ended and subjective), and joy for 喜 (as in joyous occasion, because it is often used at weddings); this is just a suggestion and I still think fortune could also work.
+ Regarding 行媒, in class I think we looked at 行 as a verb, but I found that the two characters together mean matchmaker (媒人, as in 禮記．曲禮上：「男女非有行媒，不相知名。」文選．沈約．奏彈王源：「以彼行媒，同之抱布。」). To me it also makes more sense like this, so I hope that is correct.
(YO) Yes, I think both are fine. The reason I took 行 as a verb was the point that a family employ (or work 行) a matchmaker so that he/she mediate the discussion of marriage, but I think "matchmaker discusses the marriage" does describe it, too.
+ I am not very happy with my solution for 納幣親迎者, so I will gladly take suggestions :)
+ 納幣文
(Kyrie) In class we discussed that 納幣 refers to the bride greeting her parents-in-law and offering wedding presents, which I see reflected in the translation. We also said that 親迎 refers to the groom bringing the bride from her house to his house, which I do not see reflected in the translation. Perhaps e could try something like "the ceremonies of gift giving and retrieving the bride are those which emphasize their mutual difference" ?
(YO) We could make it more specific—the ceremony of bride's offering gifts to her in-laws and groom's travel to welcome the bride in, something like that? 親迎 is one of the six ceremonies of wedding where the groom goes to the bride's house to meet/welcome her to the ceremony.
(JG) Thank you! Great solutions.
Passage 12 : Bryan
12. 苟能莊以涖之하여 以體乾健之道하고 柔以正之하여 以承坤順之義면 則家道正矣어니와 反是而夫不能專制하여 御之不以其道하고
If a husband is strong to face it and penetrat the way of the Heaven’s solidity , if his wife rectifies it with softness and succeeds the righteousness of the Earth’s obedience, then the way of household is correct. Contrary to this, if a husband cannot individually control his wife or handle her with the Way,
- Discussion Questions:
Passage 13 : Bryan
婦乘其夫하여 事之不以其義하여 昧三從之道하고 有七去之惡이면 則家道索(삭)矣리라.
The control of the wife cannot be make without the way; if she does not serve her husband with the righteousness, and if the wife ignores the three subordinations of a woman[1] and has the seven sinful causes of divorce[2], then the way of household will be chaotic.
- Discussion Questions:
