"2018 童蒙先習 05 - 08"의 두 판 사이의 차이
(→Passage 8 : Fran) |
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| (사용자 5명의 중간 판 20개는 보이지 않습니다) | |||
| 30번째 줄: | 30번째 줄: | ||
| − | ===''' | + | ==='''Passage 5 : (Kyrie)'''=== |
---- | ---- | ||
| − | + | If one is a father but does not treat his son like a son, or one is a son but does not treat his father like a father, then how do they stand in the world? | |
| + | Never-the-less, in the entire world there are no parents who are not right. Even if the father does not love his son, the son must be filial. | ||
| + | |||
*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
| + | +I was unsure about how to handle 底 in 無不是底父母. I decided to take it as meaning "to achieve/ to reach (이루다/ 이르다)." Therefore the sentence would read "There are no parents who not/to be right/to achieve," so "There are no parents who do not achieve being right" What is another way to understand this?<br /> | ||
| + | (YO) If we were to take it as "to achieve" (and 是底 as "to achieve being right"), the expected word order would be 底是 not 是底. My explanation in class was that －底 was an earlier character for modern Chinese －的, a grammatical suffix indicating subordination (A的B=A's B; V的 B=V-ing or V-ed B <他說的話 words that he said>). It would then make 是底父母 'parents who are right' and 不是底父母 'parents who are not right'. Ewa suggested a different idea, which took 底 as a verb meaning 'to anchor' or 'to secure' (I think Kyrie's suggestion for 'to achieve' is in the same vein), as in 永厎烝民之生 "to secure the (happy) lives of the multitude of people forever" in the ''Shangshu'' (''Book of Documents''), and took it as "parents who are not right and supportive (or something like that)". My hesitation was then that we would expect a 之 after 是, i.e., 不是底之父母. | ||
| − | ===''' | + | ==='''Passage 6 : (Okyang)'''=== |
---- | ---- | ||
| + | In the past, the great Shun’s mischievous father and his evil mother once wanted to kill him. | ||
| + | Shun settled it down in harmony with filial piety, subdued constantly so as not to lean towards wickedness. | ||
| + | His way of filial action reached in such a degree. | ||
| + | Kongzi said that the number of crimes that belongs to the Five Punishments is three thousand, but nothing is grater than an unfilial action. | ||
*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
| + | + (YO) If we has Kongzi (K. Kongja) for Confucius, then shouldn't we have Shun instead of Sun? <br /> | ||
| + | + (YO) You translated 蒸蒸乂 as 'subdue' but I wonder how we should take 蒸蒸 there.<br /> | ||
| + | + To be more literal, "three thousand things belong to the five punishments, but nothing is worse than the unfilial action" could be "the number of crimes that belong to (or "subject to") the Five Punishments (treated as a proper name, thus needs to be capitalized) is three thousand, but nothing is grater than an unfilial action." | ||
| + | (Kyrie) I think it would probably be best to be consistent by using all Chinese or all Korean pronunciations for the names that appear in the same passage. | ||
| − | ===''' | + | ==='''Passage 7 : Bryan Sauvadet'''=== |
---- | ---- | ||
| + | 7. 君臣은 天地之分이라 尊且貴焉하며 卑且賤焉하니 尊貴之使卑賤과 卑賤之事尊貴는 天地之常經이며 古今之通義라 | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | Rulers and subjects share heavens and earth. Rulers are respected and valuable while subjects are humble and worthless. The highness and nobility of rulers give to subjects humble and low circumstances, as well as the humble and low circumstances of subjects create the high and noble condition of rulers. [Their relation] cross heavens and earth and the righteousness pass through the past as present time. | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
| + | 1- 天地之'''分''' = 分 here seen meaning 'sharing' more than 'divided'. <br /> | ||
| + | (YO) Interesting but there is no sense of "share" in 分, for the primary meaning is 'to cut'. | ||
| − | ===''' | + | 2- 天地之常經 = I am not sur about what is crossing Heaven and earth ... so I think it is the relation between rulers and subjects. <br /> |
| + | (YO) The meaning of 經 here is '(constant) path' from its original meaning 'pass through' and 'warp in a loom', and by extension, 'unchanging, permanent route'. | ||
| + | |||
| + | 3- 古今 = 'from past to present time' or 'across the ages' ... | ||
| + | |||
| + | ==='''Passage 8 : Fran'''=== | ||
---- | ---- | ||
| − | + | Therefore, when it comes to the ruler, he embodies the primary and issues orders and decrees. As for the minister, he adjusts the primary and displays goodness and blocks out the perverse. When they gather together, they each consummate their paths, collegially assist each other, and govern by means of this excellence. | |
*Discussion Questions: | *Discussion Questions: | ||
| − | + | + I had qualms about translating 同寅協恭. I take 同寅 to be a noun meaning colleague--or is that only a modern reading? But the phrase seems to render this into an adverb, hence "collegial assistance."<br /> | |
| + | (YO) I take 同寅協恭 a combination of two verb phrases (VP), 同寅 (to share respect) and 協恭 (to concert reverence). This is based on the Han-dyansty philological scholarship: 寅,居敬也。(說文); 寅,敬也。(爾雅). Also for the line from the ''Shangshu'', 《書‧皋陶謨》：『百僚師師，百工惟時……同寅協恭，和衷哉。』 ("the various ministers will emulate one another; all the officers will accomplish their duties at the proper times…When (sovereign and ministers show) a common reverence and united respect for these, lo! the moral nature (of the people) is made harmonious. (Legge's gtranslation from CTEXT), Kong Yingda 孔穎達 glossed 『使同敬合恭而和善。』 ("to let share/conjoin in respect and combine reverence, so that they harmonize their goodness/strengths"—I think 善 is more of strengths than moral goodness). The modern meaning 'colleague, collegial' is apparently an extension of these meanings.<br /> | ||
| + | + The characters 臻至 both individually mean "to arrive", but I'm following my dictionary rendering of it as a binome meaning "excellence." But should or could the whole phrase 以臻至治 read as "By means of arriving [at the collegial assistance] attain governing"?<br /> | ||
| + | (YO) I think 臻 as verb means 'to attain, achieve, arrive' as you have it; 至 is a prefix, as in 至善 'extreme goodness, extremely good', 至高 'extremely high', etc—rather than 臻至 together as a binome. Hence, 'to attain/arrive at an extreme governing'? | ||
2018년 7월 19일 (목) 21:33 기준 최신판
목차
Original Script
5. 苟或父而不子其子하며 子而不父其父하면 其何以立於世乎리오 雖然이나 天下에 無不是底父母라 父雖不慈나 子不可以不孝니
- - 만약 혹시라도 부모이면서 자기 자식을 사랑하지 아니하며 자식이면서 자기 부모를 사랑하지 아니하면 어떻게 세상에서 자립할 수 있겠는가. 비록 그렇지만 천하에는 善하지 않은 부모가 없는지라 부모가 비록 자식을 사랑하지 않더라도 자식은 효도하지 않아서는 안 된다
6. 昔者에 大舜이 父頑母嚚하여 嘗欲殺舜이어늘 舜이 克諧以孝하사 烝烝乂하여 不格姦하시니 孝子之道가 於斯至矣로다 孔子曰 五刑之屬이 三千이로되 而罪莫大於不孝라하시니라.
- - 옛적에 위대하신 舜임금이 아버지는 완악하고 어머니는 모질어서 일찍이 순을 죽이려 하거늘 순은 효도로써 화합하고 끊임없이 다스려 악한 일을 하지 않게 하셨으니 효자의 도리가 여기에서 지극하였다. 공자께서는 “五刑에 해당하는 죄목이 삼천 가지이지만 그 중에서 불효보다 더 큰 죄가 없다.”고 말씀하셨다.
::君臣有義::
7. 君臣은 天地之分이라 尊且貴焉하며 卑且賤焉하니 尊貴之使卑賤과 卑賤之事尊貴는 天地之常經이며 古今之通義라
- - 임금과 신하는 하늘과 땅처럼 분명히 구분되는 관계이다. 임금은 높고 귀하며 신하는 낮고 천하니 존귀한 이가 비천한 이를 부리고 비천한 이가 존귀한 이를 섬기는 것은 천지간의 어디에나 통용되는 도리이며 예나 지금을 막론하고 통용되는 의리이다.
8. 是故로 君者는 體元而發號施令者也요 臣者는 調元而陳善閉邪者也라 會遇之際에 各盡其道하여 同寅協恭하여 以臻至治하나니
- - 이 때문에 임금은 元의 도리를 體行하여 명령을 내리는 존재이고 신하는 임금을 도와 착한 일을 아뢰고 부정한 일을 막는 존재이다. 임금과 신하가 만날 때에 각각 자신의 도리를 극진히 하여 함께 공경하여 지극한 정치를 이루어야 한다.
Translation
Passage 5 : (Kyrie)
If one is a father but does not treat his son like a son, or one is a son but does not treat his father like a father, then how do they stand in the world? Never-the-less, in the entire world there are no parents who are not right. Even if the father does not love his son, the son must be filial.
- Discussion Questions:
+I was unsure about how to handle 底 in 無不是底父母. I decided to take it as meaning "to achieve/ to reach (이루다/ 이르다)." Therefore the sentence would read "There are no parents who not/to be right/to achieve," so "There are no parents who do not achieve being right" What is another way to understand this?
(YO) If we were to take it as "to achieve" (and 是底 as "to achieve being right"), the expected word order would be 底是 not 是底. My explanation in class was that －底 was an earlier character for modern Chinese －的, a grammatical suffix indicating subordination (A的B=A's B; V的 B=V-ing or V-ed B <他說的話 words that he said>). It would then make 是底父母 'parents who are right' and 不是底父母 'parents who are not right'. Ewa suggested a different idea, which took 底 as a verb meaning 'to anchor' or 'to secure' (I think Kyrie's suggestion for 'to achieve' is in the same vein), as in 永厎烝民之生 "to secure the (happy) lives of the multitude of people forever" in the Shangshu (Book of Documents), and took it as "parents who are not right and supportive (or something like that)". My hesitation was then that we would expect a 之 after 是, i.e., 不是底之父母.
Passage 6 : (Okyang)
In the past, the great Shun’s mischievous father and his evil mother once wanted to kill him. Shun settled it down in harmony with filial piety, subdued constantly so as not to lean towards wickedness. His way of filial action reached in such a degree. Kongzi said that the number of crimes that belongs to the Five Punishments is three thousand, but nothing is grater than an unfilial action.
- Discussion Questions:
+ (YO) If we has Kongzi (K. Kongja) for Confucius, then shouldn't we have Shun instead of Sun?
+ (YO) You translated 蒸蒸乂 as 'subdue' but I wonder how we should take 蒸蒸 there.
+ To be more literal, "three thousand things belong to the five punishments, but nothing is worse than the unfilial action" could be "the number of crimes that belong to (or "subject to") the Five Punishments (treated as a proper name, thus needs to be capitalized) is three thousand, but nothing is grater than an unfilial action."
(Kyrie) I think it would probably be best to be consistent by using all Chinese or all Korean pronunciations for the names that appear in the same passage.
Passage 7 : Bryan Sauvadet
7. 君臣은 天地之分이라 尊且貴焉하며 卑且賤焉하니 尊貴之使卑賤과 卑賤之事尊貴는 天地之常經이며 古今之通義라
Rulers and subjects share heavens and earth. Rulers are respected and valuable while subjects are humble and worthless. The highness and nobility of rulers give to subjects humble and low circumstances, as well as the humble and low circumstances of subjects create the high and noble condition of rulers. [Their relation] cross heavens and earth and the righteousness pass through the past as present time.
- Discussion Questions:
1- 天地之分 = 分 here seen meaning 'sharing' more than 'divided'.
(YO) Interesting but there is no sense of "share" in 分, for the primary meaning is 'to cut'.
2- 天地之常經 = I am not sur about what is crossing Heaven and earth ... so I think it is the relation between rulers and subjects.
(YO) The meaning of 經 here is '(constant) path' from its original meaning 'pass through' and 'warp in a loom', and by extension, 'unchanging, permanent route'.
3- 古今 = 'from past to present time' or 'across the ages' ...
Passage 8 : Fran
Therefore, when it comes to the ruler, he embodies the primary and issues orders and decrees. As for the minister, he adjusts the primary and displays goodness and blocks out the perverse. When they gather together, they each consummate their paths, collegially assist each other, and govern by means of this excellence.
- Discussion Questions:
+ I had qualms about translating 同寅協恭. I take 同寅 to be a noun meaning colleague--or is that only a modern reading? But the phrase seems to render this into an adverb, hence "collegial assistance."
(YO) I take 同寅協恭 a combination of two verb phrases (VP), 同寅 (to share respect) and 協恭 (to concert reverence). This is based on the Han-dyansty philological scholarship: 寅,居敬也。(說文); 寅,敬也。(爾雅). Also for the line from the Shangshu, 《書‧皋陶謨》：『百僚師師，百工惟時……同寅協恭，和衷哉。』 ("the various ministers will emulate one another; all the officers will accomplish their duties at the proper times…When (sovereign and ministers show) a common reverence and united respect for these, lo! the moral nature (of the people) is made harmonious. (Legge's gtranslation from CTEXT), Kong Yingda 孔穎達 glossed 『使同敬合恭而和善。』 ("to let share/conjoin in respect and combine reverence, so that they harmonize their goodness/strengths"—I think 善 is more of strengths than moral goodness). The modern meaning 'colleague, collegial' is apparently an extension of these meanings.
+ The characters 臻至 both individually mean "to arrive", but I'm following my dictionary rendering of it as a binome meaning "excellence." But should or could the whole phrase 以臻至治 read as "By means of arriving [at the collegial assistance] attain governing"?
(YO) I think 臻 as verb means 'to attain, achieve, arrive' as you have it; 至 is a prefix, as in 至善 'extreme goodness, extremely good', 至高 'extremely high', etc—rather than 臻至 together as a binome. Hence, 'to attain/arrive at an extreme governing'?
