2018 學語集 16 - 20 - 편집 역사

2021년 6월 14일 (월) 16:16에 Jangseogak님의 편집

2021-06-14T16:16:57Z

Jangseogak: 문서를 비움

2021-06-14T08:01:02Z

문서를 비움

Althea: /* Sentence 16 : (Althea Volpe) */

2018-07-18T14:35:56Z

‎Sentence 16 : (Althea Volpe)

Youngoh64: /* Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-16T12:07:53Z

‎Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield)

Nanlin: /* Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-11T13:44:56Z

‎Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield)

Nanlin: /* Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-11T13:43:59Z

‎Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield)

Nanlin: /* Sentence 18 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-11T13:33:31Z

‎Sentence 18 : (Julian Butterfield)

Nanlin: /* Sentence 18 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-11T13:33:15Z

‎Sentence 18 : (Julian Butterfield)

Youngoh64: /* Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-09T15:39:24Z

‎Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield)

Thpepe: /* Sentence 16 : (Althea Volpe) */

2018-07-09T14:12:47Z

‎Sentence 16 : (Althea Volpe)

← 이전 판	2021년 6월 14일 (월) 16:16 판
1번째 줄:	1번째 줄:
	+	=='''Original Script'''==

	+
	+	{{원문텍스트
	+	\| =
	+	'''::: 學語集 :::'''
	+	16. 冬
	+
	+	秋盡冬來北風起白雪下民乃取茅乘屋堇戶入奧
	+
	+	17. 四時
	+
	+	一歲有四時正月二月三月爲春四月五月六月爲夏七月八月九月爲秋十月十一月十二月爲冬
	+
	+	*Time words: 歲, 年, 時
	+
	+	18. 人
	+
	+	萬物之中惟人最靈稟受五氣以爲性故皆善
	+
	+	*N 之中: among N
	+
	+	*最 A: the most A
	+
	+	*故: (for that) reason, therefore
	+
	+	19. 父母
	+
	+	父兮生我母兮育我父猶天也母猶地也欲報之德昊天罔極
	+
	+	*兮: pause marker
	+
	+	*猶 N: (be) like　　　　　　　　　 cf) 猶 V: still/yet V
	+
	+	*欲 V: want to V
	+
	+	20. 子
	+
	+	人子之職惟孝爲大養之以禮斯爲孝矣瞻彼林烏亦知反哺可以人而不如鳥乎
	+
	+	*惟-: only, solely (sentential particle)
	+
	+	*V 以 N: V with N
	+
	+	*-矣: have pp. (sentential particle indicating change of state)
	+	}}
	+
	+	=='''Translation'''==
	+
	+
	+	==='''Sentence 16 : (Althea Volpe)'''===
	+	----
	+	When autumn ends winter arrives and the wind of the north raises. White snow falls down. People then collect rushes and cover their houses, repair the door and go into the southern corner of the house.
	+
	+	*Discussion Questions:<br />
	+	+ After the first part, the rest is supposed to be one sentence. How would we make that seen?
	+
	+	(Kyrie) Since there is no punctuation in the original, I think that it should be okay to make several shorter sentences if that makes the meaning easier to understand.
	+
	+	(Petra) I agree with Kyrie, I think that the most important thing when translating texts like these is to make them understandable as much as possible so it should be okay to divide the sentence like you did.
	+
	+	(Althea) I have divided the longer sentence also because of images. I think the most important thing is to give the to the reader different images but in a slowly way in order to let them figure the nature elements and the actions described in the text.
	+
	+	==='''Sentence 17 : (Althea Volpe)'''===
	+	----
	+	A year has four seasons: first, second and third months are spring; fourth, fifth and sixth months are summer; seventh, eighth and ninth months are autumn, while tenth, eleventh and twelfth months are winter.
	+
	+	*Discussion Questions:
	+
	+	==='''Sentence 18 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===
	+	----
	+	Among ten thousand things, only people are most endowed with spirit. They are imparted with and receive five vital forces, which become their nature. For this reason, all is good.
	+
	+	*Discussion Questions:
	+	+ I understood 靈 here as a spiritual endowment as a way of covering its sense of both efficacy and spirit or soul, and also to relate it more clearly to the following sentence. Does this seem like too much of a stretch?<br />
	+	(YO) I think it works, but I think the last part "故皆善" should mean that all human beings are (morally) good—because they all are endowed with the five forces as their nature.<br />
	+	+ In this theory of human nature, where do the 五氣 come from?<br />
	+	(YO) The theories of ''yin'' - ''yang'' and of Five Elements/Forces came from separate origins, but I think in the way they are integrated in later common Confucian theory of human nature they were combinations of ''yin'' and ''yang'', which are fundamentally ''qi'' 氣. As we know, the Confucian ontology reduces all beings to ''li'' 理 and ''qi'', and whether they are two or one is of a long series of debates.
	+
	+	(NKL) - I read "all is good" idiomatically! (as in, it's all good, yo) Which was fun, but may or may not be the intended effect
	+
	+	==='''Sentence 19 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===
	+	----
	+	Father gave life to me, mother raised me. Father is like the sky, mother is like the earth. I wish to repay their virtue, limitless as the western sky.
	+
	+	*Discussion Questions:
	+	+ Is the speaker repaying the parents' 德, or repaying them ''with'' 德?<br />
	+	(YO) I think it is their (parent's) ''tŏk'', and thus it is their ''ŭndŏk'' 恩德.
	+	+ Is the it the virtue or the wish to repay the virtue which is limitless?<br />
	+	(YO) I think it is their virtue that is limitless, which therefore we cannot possibly repay.
	+
	+	==='''Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===
	+	----
	+	The duty of human children is only to be greatly filial, behaving properly to those that raised them. This is filial piety. The crows in the forest also know to reverse who feeds whom. Can one be a human being and not be like the birds?
	+
	+	*Discussion Questions:
	+	+ Which character is missing between 矣 and 彼? I can't find it in my notes.<br />
	+	- It was ''ch'ŏm'' 瞻 'to look at'.<br />
	+	+ Is there a way of translating 反哺 into English that clearly communicates the reversal of feeding roles without bringing in more English words?
	+
	+	(Kyrie) I can't think of a way to say it simply. In this case I think the reverse, that more words are necessary to convey the meaning.<br />
	+	(YO) The idea is to return regurgitation to parent birds, and regurgitation is the word for the way birds feed their young ones.
	+
	+	(NKL) - @ YO I wouldn't want to use the word "regurgitation" in translation though, so Latinate and long. Maybe "Look at that forest crow, which also knows feeding its agèd mother in return." <br />
	+	(YO) So making it more appropriately plain and direct is the idea. I buy it.
	+
	+	[[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]
	+	[[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]

← 이전 판		2021년 6월 14일 (월) 08:01 판
1번째 줄:		1번째 줄:
−	~~=='''Original Script'''==~~

−
−	~~{{원문텍스트~~
−	~~\| =~~
−	~~'''::: 學語集 :::'''~~
−	~~16. 冬~~
−
−	~~秋盡冬來北風起白雪下民乃取茅乘屋堇戶入奧~~
−
−	~~17. 四時~~
−
−	~~一歲有四時正月二月三月爲春四月五月六月爲夏七月八月九月爲秋十月十一月十二月爲冬~~
−
−	*Time words: 歲, 年, 時
−
−	~~18. 人~~
−
−	~~萬物之中惟人最靈稟受五氣以爲性故皆善~~
−
−	*N 之中: among N
−
−	*最 A: the most A
−
−	*故: (for that) reason, therefore
−
−	~~19. 父母~~
−
−	~~父兮生我母兮育我父猶天也母猶地也欲報之德昊天罔極~~
−
−	*兮: pause marker
−
−	*猶 N: (be) like　　　　　　　　　 cf) 猶 V: still/yet V
−
−	*欲 V: want to V
−
−	~~20. 子~~
−
−	~~人子之職惟孝爲大養之以禮斯爲孝矣瞻彼林烏亦知反哺可以人而不如鳥乎~~
−
−	*惟-: only, solely (sentential particle)
−
−	*V 以 N: V with N
−
−	*-矣: have pp. (sentential particle indicating change of state)
−	}}
−
−	~~=='''Translation'''==~~
−
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 16 : (Althea Volpe)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	When autumn ends winter arrives and the wind of the north raises. White snow falls down. People then collect rushes and cover their houses, repair the door and go into the southern corner of the house.
−
−	*Discussion Questions:<br />
−	~~+ After the first part, the rest is supposed to be one sentence. How would we make that seen?~~
−
−	~~(Kyrie) Since there is no punctuation in the original, I think that it should be okay to make several shorter sentences if that makes the meaning easier to understand.~~
−
−	(Petra) I agree with Kyrie, I think that the most important thing when translating texts like these is to make them understandable as much as possible so it should be okay to divide the sentence like you did.
−
−	(Althea) I have divided the longer sentence also because of images. I think the most important thing is to give the to the reader different images but in a slowly way in order to let them figure the nature elements and the actions described in the text.
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 17 : (Althea Volpe)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	A year has four seasons: first, second and third months are spring; fourth, fifth and sixth months are summer; seventh, eighth and ninth months are autumn, while tenth, eleventh and twelfth months are winter.
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 18 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	~~Among ten thousand things, only people are most endowed with spirit. They are imparted with and receive five vital forces, which become their nature. For this reason, all is good.~~
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−	+ I understood 靈 here as a spiritual endowment as a way of covering its sense of both efficacy and spirit or soul, and also to relate it more clearly to the following sentence. Does this seem like too much of a stretch?<br />
−	~~(YO) I think it works, but I think the last part "故皆善" should mean that all human beings are (morally) good—because they all are endowed with the five forces as their nature.<br />~~
−	~~+ In this theory of human nature, where do the 五氣 come from?<br />~~
−	(YO) The theories of ''yin'' - ''yang'' and of Five Elements/Forces came from separate origins, but I think in the way they are integrated in later common Confucian theory of human nature they were combinations of ''yin'' and ''yang'', which are fundamentally ''qi'' 氣. As we know, the Confucian ontology reduces all beings to ''li'' 理 and ''qi'', and whether they are two or one is of a long series of debates.
−
−	~~(NKL) - I read "all is good" idiomatically! (as in, it's all good, yo) Which was fun, but may or may not be the intended effect~~
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 19 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	~~Father gave life to me, mother raised me. Father is like the sky, mother is like the earth. I wish to repay their virtue, limitless as the western sky.~~
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−	~~+ Is the speaker repaying the parents' 德, or repaying them ''with'' 德?<br />~~
−	~~(YO) I think it is their (parent's) ''tŏk'', and thus it is their ''ŭndŏk'' 恩德.~~
−	~~+ Is the it the virtue or the wish to repay the virtue which is limitless?<br />~~
−	~~(YO) I think it is their virtue that is limitless, which therefore we cannot possibly repay.~~
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 20 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	The duty of human children is only to be greatly filial, behaving properly to those that raised them. This is filial piety. The crows in the forest also know to reverse who feeds whom. Can one be a human being and not be like the birds?
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−	~~+ Which character is missing between 矣 and 彼? I can't find it in my notes.<br />~~
−	~~- It was ''ch'ŏm'' 瞻 'to look at'.<br />~~
−	~~+ Is there a way of translating 反哺 into English that clearly communicates the reversal of feeding roles without bringing in more English words?~~
−
−	~~(Kyrie) I can't think of a way to say it simply. In this case I think the reverse, that more words are necessary to convey the meaning.<br />~~
−	~~(YO) The idea is to return regurgitation to parent birds, and regurgitation is the word for the way birds feed their young ones.~~
−
−	~~(NKL) - @ YO I wouldn't want to use the word "regurgitation" in translation though, so Latinate and long. Maybe "Look at that forest crow, which also knows feeding its agèd mother in return." <br />~~
−	~~(YO) So making it more appropriately plain and direct is the idea. I buy it.~~
−
−	~~[[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]~~
−	~~[[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]~~

← 이전 판		2018년 7월 18일 (수) 14:35 판
59번째 줄:		59번째 줄:

	(Petra) I agree with Kyrie, I think that the most important thing when translating texts like these is to make them understandable as much as possible so it should be okay to divide the sentence like you did.		(Petra) I agree with Kyrie, I think that the most important thing when translating texts like these is to make them understandable as much as possible so it should be okay to divide the sentence like you did.
		+
		+	(Althea) I have divided the longer sentence also because of images. I think the most important thing is to give the to the reader different images but in a slowly way in order to let them figure the nature elements and the actions described in the text.

	==='''Sentence 17 : (Althea Volpe)'''===		==='''Sentence 17 : (Althea Volpe)'''===

@@ 100번째 줄: / 100번째 줄: @@
 (YO) The idea is to return regurgitation to parent birds, and regurgitation is the word for the way birds feed their young ones.
-(NKL) - @ YO I wouldn't want to use the word "regurgitation" in translation though, so Latinate and long. Maybe "Look at that forest crow, which also knows feeding its agèd mother in return."
+(NKL) - @ YO I wouldn't want to use the word "regurgitation" in translation though, so Latinate and long. Maybe "Look at that forest crow, which also knows feeding its agèd mother in return." <br />
 [[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]
 [[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]

@@ 100번째 줄: / 100번째 줄: @@
 (YO) The idea is to return regurgitation to parent birds, and regurgitation is the word for the way birds feed their young ones.
-(NKL) - @ YO I wouldn't want to use the word "regurgitation" in translation though, so Latinate and long. Maybe "If you look at that forest crow, which also knows feeding its agèd mother in return."
+(NKL) - @ YO I wouldn't want to use the word "regurgitation" in translation though, so Latinate and long. Maybe "Look at that forest crow, which also knows feeding its agèd mother in return."
 [[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]
 [[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]

@@ 75번째 줄: / 75번째 줄: @@
 + In this theory of human nature, where do the 五氣 come from?<br />
 (YO) The theories of ''yin'' - ''yang'' and of Five Elements/Forces came from separate origins, but I think in the way they are integrated in later common Confucian theory of human nature they were combinations of ''yin'' and ''yang'', which are fundamentally ''qi'' 氣. As we know, the Confucian ontology reduces all beings to ''li'' 理 and ''qi'', and whether they are two or one is of a long series of debates.
 (NKL) - I read "all is good" idiomatically!  (as in, it's all good, yo) Which was fun, but may or may not be the intended effect

@@ 95번째 줄: / 95번째 줄: @@
 + Is there a way of translating 反哺 into English that clearly communicates the reversal of feeding roles without bringing in more English words?
-(Kyrie) I can't think of a way to say it simply. In this case I think the reverse, that more words are necessary to convey the meaning.
+(Kyrie) I can't think of a way to say it simply. In this case I think the reverse, that more words are necessary to convey the meaning.<br />
+(YO) The idea is to return regurgitation to parent birds, and regurgitation is the word for the way birds feed their young ones.
 [[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]
 [[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]

← 이전 판		2018년 7월 9일 (월) 14:12 판
57번째 줄:		57번째 줄:

	(Kyrie) Since there is no punctuation in the original, I think that it should be okay to make several shorter sentences if that makes the meaning easier to understand.		(Kyrie) Since there is no punctuation in the original, I think that it should be okay to make several shorter sentences if that makes the meaning easier to understand.
		+
	(Petra) I agree with Kyrie, I think that the most important thing when translating texts like these is to make them understandable as much as possible so it should be okay to divide the sentence like you did.		(Petra) I agree with Kyrie, I think that the most important thing when translating texts like these is to make them understandable as much as possible so it should be okay to divide the sentence like you did.