2018 學語集 11 - 15 - 편집 역사

Jangseogak: /* Original Script */

2021-05-10T15:13:21Z

‎Original Script

Jangseogak: 문서 내용을 "=='''Original Script'''=="으로 바꿈

2021-05-09T22:54:51Z

문서 내용을 "=='''Original Script'''=="으로 바꿈

Jelenagledic: /* Sentence 14 : (Kathy Lin) */

2018-07-16T13:06:13Z

‎Sentence 14 : (Kathy Lin)

2018년 7월 16일 (월) 12:04에 Youngoh64님의 편집

2018-07-16T12:04:54Z

Thpepe: /* Sentence 12: (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-09T14:32:56Z

‎Sentence 12: (Julian Butterfield)

Althea: /* Sentence 15 : (Write your name) */

2018-07-08T06:29:52Z

‎Sentence 15 : (Write your name)

Youngoh64: /* Translation */

2018-07-06T08:38:43Z

‎Translation

Youngoh64: /* Student 2 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-06T08:34:48Z

‎Student 2 : (Julian Butterfield)

Youngoh64: /* Student 1 : (Julian Butterfield) */

2018-07-06T08:34:14Z

‎Student 1 : (Julian Butterfield)

Nanlin: /* Student 14 : (Write your name) */

2018-07-05T12:25:18Z

‎Student 14 : (Write your name)

← 이전 판		2021년 5월 10일 (월) 15:13 판
1번째 줄:		1번째 줄:
	=='''Original Script'''==		=='''Original Script'''==
		+
		+
		+	{{원문텍스트
		+	\| =
		+	'''::: 學語集 :::'''
		+	11. 雷
		+
		+	陰陽相搏而成雷聲動以爲天皇之威
		+
		+	*相 V: V each other
		+
		+	*以為 N/C: regard as N / think that C
		+
		+	12. 霜
		+
		+	秋冬之間天氣上昇地氣下降霜乃降肅殺萬物使草木黃落.
		+
		+	*N1 N2 之間: between N1 and N2
		+
		+	*乃 C: so/then/namely C
		+
		+	*使 N V: make N V
		+
		+	13. 春
		+
		+	春之爲時也日暖風和草木化生百花爭發農夫耕田
		+
		+	*N 之 VP: for N to VP > the way that N VP
		+
		+	14. 夏
		+
		+	夏之爲時也日永風薰草木長茂農人耘秄
		+
		+	*N 也: pause marker
		+
		+	15. 秋
		+
		+	夏盡秋來凉風至霜露降草木黃落百穀用成農人收穫
		+
		+	*NN (Noun Compound)
		+
		+	*VV (Verb Compound)
		+	}}
		+
		+
		+	=='''Translation'''==
		+
		+
		+
		+	==='''Sentence 11 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===
		+	----
		+	''Yin'' and ''yang'' grapple and result in a thunderous sound; people take its movements to be the Heavenly Sovereign's majesty.<ref>This probably refers to the first of the "Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors" (三皇五帝) laid out in the Shi ji 史記 and Yiwen leiju 藝文類聚.</ref>
		+
		+	*Discussion Questions:
		+	+ Is it typical for Chinese authors to describe thunder (and especially its sound) in terms of movement (動)? Does this word have a more appropriate English gloss in this context (one that might work more elegantly with 威, for example)?<br />
		+	(YO) Perhaps we should parse it before 聲? We did talk about this and were reminded that thunder is only the noise, for which we parsed after 聲 (to make it "thunderous sound"). But the ancients did not necessarily know about it. If we parse the sentence before 聲, it would read "when the sound moves..."<br />
		+	(YO) I also think that it would be nice to have the actual quote in your note.
		+
		+	==='''Sentence 12: (Julian Butterfield)'''===
		+	----
		+	Between autumn and winter, the ''qi'' of heaven rises up while the earth's ''qi'' draws downward: frost then drops desolation upon the myriad things, causing vegetation to wither and droop.
		+
		+	*Discussion Questions:
		+	+ Does 秋冬之間 indicate the time ''between'' the seasons, or the space of the two seasons as a whole?<br />
		+	(Petra) I would say that it is the time of transition between the two seasons.<br />
		+	(YO) Literally it can be both, but I think it is the former in this case. Frost is frequent in late fall and early winter.
		+
		+
		+	# What are some possible disadvantages of not translating ''qi''/''ki''? Is there a preferable English option?
		+
		+	==='''Sentence 13 : (Kathy Lin)'''===
		+	----
		+	Spring
		+
		+	The season of spring: the days are warm and the winds mild. The grasses and trees are changed into life. A hundred flowers vie, blooming. A farmer plows the field.
		+
		+	*Discussion Questions:
		+	+ There being no singular or plural differentiation in hanmun makes a difference in the effect of the last line with 农夫. I chose to zoom in close on one farmer in the singular versus generic farmers in the plural - inspiration in part from William Carlos Williams - but this would be been left ambiguous in the Chinese - perhaps fruitfully, or perhaps fuzzily, without a deliberate microcosmic look on the level of the person singular. What would you have chosen here / why?<br />
		+	(YO) I like the singular-farmer scene. It conveys the serene abruptness, toil of a farmer who starts another year's work. Then again, plural farmers would make the lively spring scene, all things and lives coming alive.
		+
		+	==='''Sentence 14 : (Kathy Lin)'''===
		+	----
		+	Summer
		+
		+	The season of summer: long days, a fragrant breeze. The grasses and trees grow out in profusion. The farmer weeds and tills.
		+
		+	*Discussion Questions:
		+	+ A variation of the question posted above in Hagojip 13, regarding farmer in the singular vs. plural. In the singular in English, we further have the choice of a farmer vs. the farmer. Again the English language offers possibilities for precision here not possible in the native Chinese and hence, opportunities (a choice in fact must be made) for creation. What would you choose/why? (Noting that if we had more context or story, that would possibly decide the matter for us) <br/>
		+	(YO) A novel point that we run into often. What do think the effect caused by the farmer instead of a farmer?<br />
		+	(JG) In these sentences, I would always opt for the plural because of the cultural and social milieu of the original text - when I read I always imagine the collective or even the class of such people (farmers) whose task is to do such and such in a specific season.
		+
		+	==='''Sentence 15 : (Althea Volpe)'''===
		+	----
		+	When summer ends and the autumn comes the cool wind arrives and frost and dew come down. Plants and trees turn yellow and fall off and all the crops are about to be harvest by farmers.
		+
		+	*Discussion Questions: <br/>
		+	(YO) Active/passive issue again. 百穀用成農人收穫: “All the crops have just become complete/ripe; farmers harvest them" or "All the crops have just become complete/ripe, and are harvested by farmers"?
		+
		+	<br />
		+
		+	[[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]
		+	[[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]

← 이전 판		2021년 5월 9일 (일) 22:54 판
1번째 줄:		1번째 줄:
	=='''Original Script'''==		=='''Original Script'''==
−
−
−	~~{{원문텍스트~~
−	~~\| =~~
−	~~'''::: 學語集 :::'''~~
−	~~11. 雷~~
−
−	~~陰陽相搏而成雷聲動以爲天皇之威~~
−
−	*相 V: V each other
−
−	*以為 N/C: regard as N / think that C
−
−	~~12. 霜~~
−
−	~~秋冬之間天氣上昇地氣下降霜乃降肅殺萬物使草木黃落.~~
−
−	*N1 N2 之間: between N1 and N2
−
−	*乃 C: so/then/namely C
−
−	*使 N V: make N V
−
−	~~13. 春~~
−
−	~~春之爲時也日暖風和草木化生百花爭發農夫耕田~~
−
−	*N 之 VP: for N to VP > the way that N VP
−
−	~~14. 夏~~
−
−	~~夏之爲時也日永風薰草木長茂農人耘秄~~
−
−	*N 也: pause marker
−
−	~~15. 秋~~
−
−	~~夏盡秋來凉風至霜露降草木黃落百穀用成農人收穫~~
−
−	*NN (Noun Compound)
−
−	*VV (Verb Compound)
−	}}
−
−
−	~~=='''Translation'''==~~
−
−
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 11 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	''Yin'' and ''yang'' grapple and result in a thunderous sound; people take its movements to be the Heavenly Sovereign's majesty.<ref>This probably refers to the first of the "Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors" (三皇五帝) laid out in the Shi ji 史記 and Yiwen leiju 藝文類聚.</ref>
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−	+ Is it typical for Chinese authors to describe thunder (and especially its sound) in terms of movement (動)? Does this word have a more appropriate English gloss in this context (one that might work more elegantly with 威, for example)?<br />
−	(YO) Perhaps we should parse it before 聲? We did talk about this and were reminded that thunder is only the noise, for which we parsed after 聲 (to make it "thunderous sound"). But the ancients did not necessarily know about it. If we parse the sentence before 聲, it would read "when the sound moves..."<br />
−	~~(YO) I also think that it would be nice to have the actual quote in your note.~~
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 12: (Julian Butterfield)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	~~Between autumn and winter, the ''qi'' of heaven rises up while the earth's ''qi'' draws downward: frost then drops desolation upon the myriad things, causing vegetation to wither and droop.~~
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−	~~+ Does 秋冬之間 indicate the time ''between'' the seasons, or the space of the two seasons as a whole?<br />~~
−	~~(Petra) I would say that it is the time of transition between the two seasons.<br />~~
−	~~(YO) Literally it can be both, but I think it is the former in this case. Frost is frequent in late fall and early winter.~~
−
−
−	~~# What are some possible disadvantages of not translating ''qi''/''ki''? Is there a preferable English option?~~
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 13 : (Kathy Lin)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	~~Spring~~
−
−	~~The season of spring: the days are warm and the winds mild. The grasses and trees are changed into life. A hundred flowers vie, blooming. A farmer plows the field.~~
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−	+ There being no singular or plural differentiation in hanmun makes a difference in the effect of the last line with 农夫. I chose to zoom in close on one farmer in the singular versus generic farmers in the plural - inspiration in part from William Carlos Williams - but this would be been left ambiguous in the Chinese - perhaps fruitfully, or perhaps fuzzily, without a deliberate microcosmic look on the level of the person singular. What would you have chosen here / why?<br />
−	(YO) I like the singular-farmer scene. It conveys the serene abruptness, toil of a farmer who starts another year's work. Then again, plural farmers would make the lively spring scene, all things and lives coming alive.
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 14 : (Kathy Lin)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	~~Summer~~
−
−	~~The season of summer: long days, a fragrant breeze. The grasses and trees grow out in profusion. The farmer weeds and tills.~~
−
−	*Discussion Questions:
−	+ A variation of the question posted above in Hagojip 13, regarding farmer in the singular vs. plural. In the singular in English, we further have the choice of a farmer vs. the farmer. Again the English language offers possibilities for precision here not possible in the native Chinese and hence, opportunities (a choice in fact must be made) for creation. What would you choose/why? (Noting that if we had more context or story, that would possibly decide the matter for us) <br/>
−	~~(YO) A novel point that we run into often. What do think the effect caused by the farmer instead of a farmer?<br />~~
−	(JG) In these sentences, I would always opt for the plural because of the cultural and social milieu of the original text - when I read I always imagine the collective or even the class of such people (farmers) whose task is to do such and such in a specific season.
−
−	~~==='''Sentence 15 : (Althea Volpe)'''===~~
−	~~----~~
−	~~When summer ends and the autumn comes the cool wind arrives and frost and dew come down. Plants and trees turn yellow and fall off and all the crops are about to be harvest by farmers.~~
−
−	*Discussion Questions: <br/>
−	(YO) Active/passive issue again. 百穀用成農人收穫: “All the crops have just become complete/ripe; farmers harvest them" or "All the crops have just become complete/ripe, and are harvested by farmers"?
−
−	~~<br />~~
−
−	~~[[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]~~
−	~~[[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]~~

@@ 88번째 줄: / 88번째 줄: @@
 *Discussion Questions:
 + A variation of the question posted above in Hagojip 13, regarding farmer in the singular vs. plural. In the singular in English, we further have the choice of *a* farmer vs. *the* farmer. Again the English language offers possibilities for precision here not possible in the native Chinese and hence, opportunities (a choice in fact must be made) for creation. What would you choose/why? (Noting that if we had more context or story, that would possibly decide the matter for us) <br/>
-(YO) A novel point that we run into often. What do think the effect caused by *the* farmer instead of *a* farmer?
+(YO) A novel point that we run into often. What do think the effect caused by *the* farmer instead of *a* farmer?<br />
 ==='''Sentence 15 : (Althea Volpe)'''===

@@ 54번째 줄: / 54번째 줄: @@
 *Discussion Questions:
-# Is it typical for Chinese authors to describe thunder (and especially its sound) in terms of movement (動)? Does this word have a more appropriate English gloss in this context (one that might work more elegantly with 威, for example)?
++ Is it typical for Chinese authors to describe thunder (and especially its sound) in terms of movement (動)? Does this word have a more appropriate English gloss in this context (one that might work more elegantly with 威, for example)?<br />
 ==='''Sentence 12: (Julian Butterfield)'''===
@@ 61번째 줄: / 63번째 줄: @@
 *Discussion Questions:
-# Does 秋冬之間 indicate the time ''between'' the seasons, or the space of the two seasons as a whole?
++ Does 秋冬之間 indicate the time ''between'' the seasons, or the space of the two seasons as a whole?<br />
+(Petra) I would say that it is the time of transition between the two seasons.<br />
-(Petra) I would say that it is the time of transition between the two seasons.
+(YO) Literally it can be both, but I think it is the former in this case. Frost is frequent in late fall and early winter.
@@ 75번째 줄: / 77번째 줄: @@
 *Discussion Questions:
-+ There being no singular or plural differentiation in hanmun makes a difference in the effect of the last line with 农夫. I chose to zoom in close on one farmer in the singular versus generic farmers in the plural - inspiration in part from William Carlos Williams - but this would be been left ambiguous in the Chinese - perhaps fruitfully, or perhaps fuzzily, without a deliberate microcosmic look on the level of the person singular. What would you have chosen here / why?
++ There being no singular or plural differentiation in hanmun makes a difference in the effect of the last line with 农夫. I chose to zoom in close on one farmer in the singular versus generic farmers in the plural - inspiration in part from William Carlos Williams - but this would be been left ambiguous in the Chinese - perhaps fruitfully, or perhaps fuzzily, without a deliberate microcosmic look on the level of the person singular. What would you have chosen here / why?<br />
 ==='''Sentence 14 : (Kathy Lin)'''===
@@ 84번째 줄: / 87번째 줄: @@
 *Discussion Questions:
-+ A variation of the question posted above in Hagojip 13, regarding farmer in the singular vs. plural. In the singular in English, we further have the choice of *a* farmer vs. *the* farmer. Again the English language offers possibilities for precision here not possible in the native Chinese and hence, opportunities (a choice in fact must be made) for creation. What would you choose/why? (Noting that if we had more context or story, that would possibly decide the matter for us)
++ A variation of the question posted above in Hagojip 13, regarding farmer in the singular vs. plural. In the singular in English, we further have the choice of *a* farmer vs. *the* farmer. Again the English language offers possibilities for precision here not possible in the native Chinese and hence, opportunities (a choice in fact must be made) for creation. What would you choose/why? (Noting that if we had more context or story, that would possibly decide the matter for us) <br/>
+(YO) A novel point that we run into often. What do think the effect caused by *the* farmer instead of *a* farmer?
 ==='''Sentence 15 : (Althea Volpe)'''===
@@ 91번째 줄: / 94번째 줄: @@
 When summer ends and the autumn comes the cool wind arrives and frost and dew come down. Plants and trees turn yellow and fall off and all the crops are about to be harvest by farmers.
+*Discussion Questions: <br/>
-*Discussion Questions:
+(YO) Active/passive issue again. 百穀用成農人收穫: “All the crops have just become complete/ripe; farmers harvest them" or "All the crops have just become complete/ripe, and are harvested by farmers"?
 <br />

@@ 62번째 줄: / 62번째 줄: @@
 *Discussion Questions:
 # Does 秋冬之間 indicate the time ''between'' the seasons, or the space of the two seasons as a whole?
 # What are some possible disadvantages of not translating ''qi''/''ki''? Is there a preferable English option?
 ==='''Sentence  13 : (Kathy Lin)'''===

@@ 47번째 줄: / 47번째 줄: @@
 =='''Translation'''==
@@ 68번째 줄: / 63번째 줄: @@
 # Does 秋冬之間 indicate the time ''between'' the seasons, or the space of the two seasons as a whole?
 # What are some possible disadvantages of not translating ''qi''/''ki''? Is there a preferable English option?
-==='''Student 4 : (Write your name)'''===
+==='''Sentence  13 : (Kathy Lin)'''===
 ----
-*Discussion Questions:
+The season of spring: the days are warm and the winds mild.  The grasses and trees are changed into life. A hundred flowers vie, blooming. A farmer plows the field.
 *Discussion Questions:
+==='''Sentence 14 : (Kathy Lin)'''===
 ----
-*Discussion Questions:
+The season of summer: long days, a fragrant breeze. The grasses and trees grow out in profusion. The farmer weeds and tills.
 *Discussion Questions:
-==='''Student 8 : (Write your name)'''===
+==='''Sentence 15 : (Write your name)'''===
 ----
 *Discussion Questions:
+<br />
 [[Category:2018 Hanmun Summer Workshop]]
 [[Category:Intermediate Training Group]]

@@ 61번째 줄: / 61번째 줄: @@
 # Is it typical for Chinese authors to describe thunder (and especially its sound) in terms of movement (動)? Does this word have a more appropriate English gloss in this context (one that might work more elegantly with 威, for example)?
-==='''Student 2 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===
+==='''Sentence 12: (Julian Butterfield)'''===
 ----
 Between autumn and winter, the ''qi'' of heaven rises up while the earth's ''qi'' draws downward: frost then drops desolation upon the myriad things, causing vegetation to wither and droop.

@@ 54번째 줄: / 54번째 줄: @@
-==='''Student 1 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===
+==='''Sentence 11 : (Julian Butterfield)'''===
 ----
 ''Yin'' and ''yang'' grapple and result in a thunderous sound; people take its movements to be the Heavenly Sovereign's majesty.<ref>This probably refers to the first of the "Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors" (三皇五帝) laid out in the Shi ji 史記 and Yiwen leiju 藝文類聚.</ref>